Biggest screw job of the state tournament???
Quote from TopRowRuffRider on March 3, 2025, 9:29 amEasily Ayden Kellogg of Stevens. The match would have been drastically different if the refs didn't steal away those takedowns. I feel bad for the kid. The entire arena agrees with me. Did you hear the boos when the match was over? They weren't booing the BV kid, I can tell you that.
Easily Ayden Kellogg of Stevens. The match would have been drastically different if the refs didn't steal away those takedowns. I feel bad for the kid. The entire arena agrees with me. Did you hear the boos when the match was over? They weren't booing the BV kid, I can tell you that.
Quote from 3moves on March 3, 2025, 10:10 amIt wasn't great, was only down by 3 after that, but he still had 5:30 minutes, and almost got teched.
Go watch Graham Wilde's(150) qtrfinal match. You will see a masterclass in how the wrestler was not putting it in the hands of the refs, but the ref took the match out of the hands of the wrestler no matter what they did. Too much went on for it to be described effectively here.
It wasn't great, was only down by 3 after that, but he still had 5:30 minutes, and almost got teched.
Go watch Graham Wilde's(150) qtrfinal match. You will see a masterclass in how the wrestler was not putting it in the hands of the refs, but the ref took the match out of the hands of the wrestler no matter what they did. Too much went on for it to be described effectively here.
Quote from Racing34 on March 3, 2025, 10:22 amI would say the Robbins Walker finals at 113 B's that was the biggest hose job Robbins kid won that match, there was way to many refs deciding matches this year they need to remember they are not the show its the kids!!!
I would say the Robbins Walker finals at 113 B's that was the biggest hose job Robbins kid won that match, there was way to many refs deciding matches this year they need to remember they are not the show its the kids!!!
Quote from J W on March 3, 2025, 10:31 amNot really a screw job as I agree with the call, but I feel bad for Mr. Hurd from RCC getting called on the slam in the semis. Hate to see that happen. Was looking forward to him and Baldwin.
Not really a screw job as I agree with the call, but I feel bad for Mr. Hurd from RCC getting called on the slam in the semis. Hate to see that happen. Was looking forward to him and Baldwin.
Quote from TopRowRuffRider on March 3, 2025, 11:00 amI am going to go back and watch these matches everyone mentions. I did see Wilde's quarter match, but didn't have a good angle for those out of bounds calls. I didn't see a single class B match. This will be fun to go back and look.
I am going to go back and watch these matches everyone mentions. I did see Wilde's quarter match, but didn't have a good angle for those out of bounds calls. I didn't see a single class B match. This will be fun to go back and look.
Quote from Fat125 on March 3, 2025, 11:07 amQuote from 3moves on March 3, 2025, 10:10 amIt wasn't great, was only down by 3 after that, but he still had 5:30 minutes, and almost got teched.
Kellogg had 2 takedowns removed in the first period, and Schunke's first takedown looked to be a rolling start. I don't know how the match would have ended, but people wrestle different with a lead than if they are down by 6 or 7 points. So I think that match could have turned out much differently.
Quote from 3moves on March 3, 2025, 10:10 amIt wasn't great, was only down by 3 after that, but he still had 5:30 minutes, and almost got teched.
Kellogg had 2 takedowns removed in the first period, and Schunke's first takedown looked to be a rolling start. I don't know how the match would have ended, but people wrestle different with a lead than if they are down by 6 or 7 points. So I think that match could have turned out much differently.
Quote from 3moves on March 3, 2025, 11:23 amQuote from TopRowRuffRider on March 3, 2025, 11:00 amI am going to go back and watch these matches everyone mentions. I did see Wilde's quarter match, but didn't have a good angle for those out of bounds calls. I didn't see a single class B match. This will be fun to go back and look.
The out of bounds call probably should never had to have happened, because the "phantom potentially dangerous" should never been called in the first period....but snowballs from there.
All these kids can have some gripes though about certain things. the schunke match sticks out for sure, as does the Walker and Wilde matches. Refs also can't ignore stalling in OT, drives me nuts, the rules are still the rules, we can't ignore a set of rules in certain points of the match and enforce the rest.
Quote from TopRowRuffRider on March 3, 2025, 11:00 amI am going to go back and watch these matches everyone mentions. I did see Wilde's quarter match, but didn't have a good angle for those out of bounds calls. I didn't see a single class B match. This will be fun to go back and look.
The out of bounds call probably should never had to have happened, because the "phantom potentially dangerous" should never been called in the first period....but snowballs from there.
All these kids can have some gripes though about certain things. the schunke match sticks out for sure, as does the Walker and Wilde matches. Refs also can't ignore stalling in OT, drives me nuts, the rules are still the rules, we can't ignore a set of rules in certain points of the match and enforce the rest.
Quote from Muskie on March 3, 2025, 1:04 pmKelloggs 1st take down taken away had back points as well!!!
Kelloggs 1st take down taken away had back points as well!!!
Quote from lace em up on March 3, 2025, 1:53 pmdirectly from the SDHSAA wrestling handbook:
RULE REVISIONS FOR THE 2024-25 SEASON
National Federation Rule Changes
Beginning with the 2024-25 season, high school wrestlers will be inbounds with only one point of contact of either
wrestler inside or on the boundary line. Previously, high school wrestlers were considered to be inbounds if a total of two
supporting points of either wrestler were inside or on the boundary line. The two supporting points could be two supporting
points of one wrestler or one supporting point of each wrestler inside or on the boundary line. Without increasing risk, this
change eliminates the subjectivity of the out-of-bounds call. The change also helps officials to call ‘out of bounds’ more
consistently, and it provides wrestlers, coaches and spectators a better understanding of out of bounds.
Unfortunate that the rule wasn't applied. In both the Wilde and Kellogg matches the head ref had the call right, but then the assistant ref overturned the call incorrectly. With video replay at state (in two different angles for the championship), should there be a replay challenge to make sure these are called correctly?
Just so unfortunate that these kids put so many years into their wrestling careers to have a (mis)judgement on the application of the rule. The rule that was supposed to be more clear.
That being said, I do appreciate the work of the officials in general and don't want to point a finger at any one official. Perhaps they could use some assistance, however, in these high-pressure matches, and utilize video replay reviewed by an impartial third party.
directly from the SDHSAA wrestling handbook:
RULE REVISIONS FOR THE 2024-25 SEASON
National Federation Rule Changes
Beginning with the 2024-25 season, high school wrestlers will be inbounds with only one point of contact of either
wrestler inside or on the boundary line. Previously, high school wrestlers were considered to be inbounds if a total of two
supporting points of either wrestler were inside or on the boundary line. The two supporting points could be two supporting
points of one wrestler or one supporting point of each wrestler inside or on the boundary line. Without increasing risk, this
change eliminates the subjectivity of the out-of-bounds call. The change also helps officials to call ‘out of bounds’ more
consistently, and it provides wrestlers, coaches and spectators a better understanding of out of bounds.
Unfortunate that the rule wasn't applied. In both the Wilde and Kellogg matches the head ref had the call right, but then the assistant ref overturned the call incorrectly. With video replay at state (in two different angles for the championship), should there be a replay challenge to make sure these are called correctly?
Just so unfortunate that these kids put so many years into their wrestling careers to have a (mis)judgement on the application of the rule. The rule that was supposed to be more clear.
That being said, I do appreciate the work of the officials in general and don't want to point a finger at any one official. Perhaps they could use some assistance, however, in these high-pressure matches, and utilize video replay reviewed by an impartial third party.
Quote from GMA on March 3, 2025, 2:11 pmI have no dog in the Kellog/Schunke fight and was on the other end of the floor when it happened, but went back and watched when I heard the rumblings. When you watch them closely (screen shots attached), you will find that the calls were very close and likely correct. The chin whip (w/backs) in the first has them going out with no point of contact in the circle before Kellogg's foot comes back down in bounds. In the college 'cylinder', this should have been a takedown. Not in HS. The go-behind later in the match also shows Kellogg's left foot off the mat before coming back down.
Both were very close calls and had I been the trail ref, I would have had a hard time confidently overturning the whistle's original call. Had there been replay, the calls would have likely been reversed like they ultimately were.
I have no dog in the Kellog/Schunke fight and was on the other end of the floor when it happened, but went back and watched when I heard the rumblings. When you watch them closely (screen shots attached), you will find that the calls were very close and likely correct. The chin whip (w/backs) in the first has them going out with no point of contact in the circle before Kellogg's foot comes back down in bounds. In the college 'cylinder', this should have been a takedown. Not in HS. The go-behind later in the match also shows Kellogg's left foot off the mat before coming back down.
Both were very close calls and had I been the trail ref, I would have had a hard time confidently overturning the whistle's original call. Had there been replay, the calls would have likely been reversed like they ultimately were.
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Quote from Fat125 on March 3, 2025, 3:16 pmQuote from GMA on March 3, 2025, 2:11 pmI have no dog in the Kellog/Schunke fight and was on the other end of the floor when it happened, but went back and watched when I heard the rumblings. When you watch them closely (screen shots attached), you will find that the calls were very close and likely correct. The chin whip (w/backs) in the first has them going out with no point of contact in the circle before Kellogg's foot comes back down in bounds. In the college 'cylinder', this should have been a takedown. Not in HS. The go-behind later in the match also shows Kellogg's left foot off the mat before coming back down.
Both were very close calls and had I been the trail ref, I would have had a hard time confidently overturning the whistle's original call. Had there been replay, the calls would have likely been reversed like they ultimately were.
In your first picture, I can not confidently tell whether the left hand of Schunke is on the mat or not. In the 2nd picture, it is close, but it looks to me like Kellogg's head is on the line. That would also mean in bounds.
Quote from GMA on March 3, 2025, 2:11 pmI have no dog in the Kellog/Schunke fight and was on the other end of the floor when it happened, but went back and watched when I heard the rumblings. When you watch them closely (screen shots attached), you will find that the calls were very close and likely correct. The chin whip (w/backs) in the first has them going out with no point of contact in the circle before Kellogg's foot comes back down in bounds. In the college 'cylinder', this should have been a takedown. Not in HS. The go-behind later in the match also shows Kellogg's left foot off the mat before coming back down.
Both were very close calls and had I been the trail ref, I would have had a hard time confidently overturning the whistle's original call. Had there been replay, the calls would have likely been reversed like they ultimately were.
In your first picture, I can not confidently tell whether the left hand of Schunke is on the mat or not. In the 2nd picture, it is close, but it looks to me like Kellogg's head is on the line. That would also mean in bounds.
Quote from GMA on March 3, 2025, 3:23 pmQuote from Fat125 on March 3, 2025, 3:16 pmQuote from GMA on March 3, 2025, 2:11 pmI have no dog in the Kellog/Schunke fight and was on the other end of the floor when it happened, but went back and watched when I heard the rumblings. When you watch them closely (screen shots attached), you will find that the calls were very close and likely correct. The chin whip (w/backs) in the first has them going out with no point of contact in the circle before Kellogg's foot comes back down in bounds. In the college 'cylinder', this should have been a takedown. Not in HS. The go-behind later in the match also shows Kellogg's left foot off the mat before coming back down.
Both were very close calls and had I been the trail ref, I would have had a hard time confidently overturning the whistle's original call. Had there been replay, the calls would have likely been reversed like they ultimately were.
In your first picture, I can not confidently tell whether the left hand of Schunke is on the mat or not. In the 2nd picture, it is close, but it looks to me like Kellogg's head is on the line. That would also mean in bounds.
I get it, and that's why I said I wouldn't have confidence in changing the calls. For what it's worth, Schunke's hand was on the mat if you watch the next few frames of video, but it's unclear whether it was in bounds.
Quote from Fat125 on March 3, 2025, 3:16 pmQuote from GMA on March 3, 2025, 2:11 pmI have no dog in the Kellog/Schunke fight and was on the other end of the floor when it happened, but went back and watched when I heard the rumblings. When you watch them closely (screen shots attached), you will find that the calls were very close and likely correct. The chin whip (w/backs) in the first has them going out with no point of contact in the circle before Kellogg's foot comes back down in bounds. In the college 'cylinder', this should have been a takedown. Not in HS. The go-behind later in the match also shows Kellogg's left foot off the mat before coming back down.
Both were very close calls and had I been the trail ref, I would have had a hard time confidently overturning the whistle's original call. Had there been replay, the calls would have likely been reversed like they ultimately were.
In your first picture, I can not confidently tell whether the left hand of Schunke is on the mat or not. In the 2nd picture, it is close, but it looks to me like Kellogg's head is on the line. That would also mean in bounds.
I get it, and that's why I said I wouldn't have confidence in changing the calls. For what it's worth, Schunke's hand was on the mat if you watch the next few frames of video, but it's unclear whether it was in bounds.
Quote from has been on March 4, 2025, 2:57 pmTake a look at the official in the 2nd picture. He has his hands in his pocket and out of position. If that is the assistant, his main purpose during this situation is to be in good position and looking for the supporting points to either be in or out of bounds and communicating to the head official AS SOON as there is an out of bounds situation. This allows the head official to worry about points, illegal holds, pins, etc. The assistant refs did nothing but jog to the opposite side of the mat and as far away from the action as possible all weekend long and never hustled into position for their out of bounds responsibilities.
Take a look at the official in the 2nd picture. He has his hands in his pocket and out of position. If that is the assistant, his main purpose during this situation is to be in good position and looking for the supporting points to either be in or out of bounds and communicating to the head official AS SOON as there is an out of bounds situation. This allows the head official to worry about points, illegal holds, pins, etc. The assistant refs did nothing but jog to the opposite side of the mat and as far away from the action as possible all weekend long and never hustled into position for their out of bounds responsibilities.
Quote from McCook on March 5, 2025, 10:47 amHey if we are all questioning official's calls, the SDHSAA is looking for more officials so throw on the gear and give it a try if you are an expert on the calls!
Scott Andal
Hey if we are all questioning official's calls, the SDHSAA is looking for more officials so throw on the gear and give it a try if you are an expert on the calls!
Scott Andal
Quote from 3moves on March 5, 2025, 11:28 amHey if refs can't do a job they are paid to do and do correctly what are we paying them for? If they were volunteers, fine. It is what it is, but just because they are reffing doesn't mean they get a free pass. Isn't too much to ask them and other refs to review some of the questionable matches and get better? Or are they above getting better? Cuz if they are above getting better and improving what they are doing then by all means......also discussing the questionable calls helps non-participants understand the ruleset better and apply it in future situations and coaches as well. As far as I've read here the discussion has been civil and pretty good. No one is asking anyone to quit reffing. Correcting and discussing leads to better applications of the rules in the future.
Hey if refs can't do a job they are paid to do and do correctly what are we paying them for? If they were volunteers, fine. It is what it is, but just because they are reffing doesn't mean they get a free pass. Isn't too much to ask them and other refs to review some of the questionable matches and get better? Or are they above getting better? Cuz if they are above getting better and improving what they are doing then by all means......also discussing the questionable calls helps non-participants understand the ruleset better and apply it in future situations and coaches as well. As far as I've read here the discussion has been civil and pretty good. No one is asking anyone to quit reffing. Correcting and discussing leads to better applications of the rules in the future.
Quote from lace em up on March 6, 2025, 11:54 amAs I said, I do appreciate the work of the officials in general and don't want to point a finger at any one official. Perhaps they could use some assistance, however, in these high-pressure matches, and utilize video replay reviewed by an impartial third party.
Clips attached. 1st takedown (and back points): Kellogg has Schunke on his back for three seconds on the match clock, before Schunke's foot hits the floor off the mat. There is always one point of contact of either
wrestler inside or on the boundary line prior to the foot off the mat.2nd takedown: From a different view than what was posted above, Schunke's left hand is on the line.
Wilde match: Takedown at end of sudden victory before they go out of bounds.
What I am saying is that these are very difficult calls, and I could not do better. No one can see the action and the outer line at the same instant. It is hard for two officials to coordinate the timing, especially at live speed. But the technology is there to assist. The state championship match has multiple angles. Why not utilize these different angles to simply help the officials, wrestlers, and coaches, like they do in college?
As I said, I do appreciate the work of the officials in general and don't want to point a finger at any one official. Perhaps they could use some assistance, however, in these high-pressure matches, and utilize video replay reviewed by an impartial third party.
Clips attached. 1st takedown (and back points): Kellogg has Schunke on his back for three seconds on the match clock, before Schunke's foot hits the floor off the mat. There is always one point of contact of either
wrestler inside or on the boundary line prior to the foot off the mat.
2nd takedown: From a different view than what was posted above, Schunke's left hand is on the line.
Wilde match: Takedown at end of sudden victory before they go out of bounds.
What I am saying is that these are very difficult calls, and I could not do better. No one can see the action and the outer line at the same instant. It is hard for two officials to coordinate the timing, especially at live speed. But the technology is there to assist. The state championship match has multiple angles. Why not utilize these different angles to simply help the officials, wrestlers, and coaches, like they do in college?
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Quote from stevefrench on March 7, 2025, 12:35 pmNobody has even mentioned the largest hose job of them all! 215 B quarterfinal between Murray and Burma. OT 1-1. Hollywood on the whistle with Corneman as his backup (maybe the oldest combined age of refs possible at the state tourney? Also probably the most combined experience). But, Burma with a leg up, Murray kids away, Burma tackles Murray above the arms, THREEEEE TAKE DOWN, Murray rolls as Burma tackles and looks like it would've been a scramble that would have went in Murray's favor. No time for action whatsoever. 8 seed Burma takes DAHNNNN the 1 seed, Murray.
Nobody has even mentioned the largest hose job of them all! 215 B quarterfinal between Murray and Burma. OT 1-1. Hollywood on the whistle with Corneman as his backup (maybe the oldest combined age of refs possible at the state tourney? Also probably the most combined experience). But, Burma with a leg up, Murray kids away, Burma tackles Murray above the arms, THREEEEE TAKE DOWN, Murray rolls as Burma tackles and looks like it would've been a scramble that would have went in Murray's favor. No time for action whatsoever. 8 seed Burma takes DAHNNNN the 1 seed, Murray.
Quote from Stockton on March 13, 2025, 9:51 amQuote from stevefrench on March 7, 2025, 12:35 pmNobody has even mentioned the largest hose job of them all! 215 B quarterfinal between Murray and Burma. OT 1-1. Hollywood on the whistle with Corneman as his backup (maybe the oldest combined age of refs possible at the state tourney? Also probably the most combined experience). But, Burma with a leg up, Murray kids away, Burma tackles Murray above the arms, THREEEEE TAKE DOWN, Murray rolls as Burma tackles and looks like it would've been a scramble that would have went in Murray's favor. No time for action whatsoever. 8 seed Burma takes DAHNNNN the 1 seed, Murray.
Agreed
Quote from stevefrench on March 7, 2025, 12:35 pmNobody has even mentioned the largest hose job of them all! 215 B quarterfinal between Murray and Burma. OT 1-1. Hollywood on the whistle with Corneman as his backup (maybe the oldest combined age of refs possible at the state tourney? Also probably the most combined experience). But, Burma with a leg up, Murray kids away, Burma tackles Murray above the arms, THREEEEE TAKE DOWN, Murray rolls as Burma tackles and looks like it would've been a scramble that would have went in Murray's favor. No time for action whatsoever. 8 seed Burma takes DAHNNNN the 1 seed, Murray.
Agreed
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